Cyber Crime Junkies

New Ways to Take Control Over Data Privacy with Kurt Long.

April 12, 2024 Cyber Crime Junkies-David Mauro Season 4 Episode 45
New Ways to Take Control Over Data Privacy with Kurt Long.
Cyber Crime Junkies
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Cyber Crime Junkies
New Ways to Take Control Over Data Privacy with Kurt Long.
Apr 12, 2024 Season 4 Episode 45
Cyber Crime Junkies-David Mauro

NEW! Text Us Direct Here!

Kurt Long  CEO and founder of BUNKR ( an affordable all-in-one app with secure messaging, password management, and secure file storage.

We discuss new approaches to safe and private messaging apps, how to keep criminals out of your private data, and why online privacy is important to freedom.


  • 01:09 Kurt Long's Work at the Kennedy Space Center
  • 10:14 The Importance of Healthcare Security
  • 20:45 The Risks and Implications of Deepfake Technology
  • 25:51 Introduction to Bunker
  • 27:00 Bunker's Pricing and Affordability
  • 30:06 Bunker's Architecture and Zero Trust Approach
  • 34:33 Issues with Other Messaging Apps
  • 36:33 Balancing Privacy, Security, and Accountability
  • 44:00 Compliance and Finance
  • 49:31 Vision for Privacy, Security, and Accountability

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Don't Miss our Video on this Exciting KiteWorks Offer!

Click the link above or text 904-867-4468, 2014652: and leave your message!

You can now text our Podcast Studio direct. Ask questions, suggest guests and stories. 

We Look Forward To Hearing From You!

Try KiteWorks today at

Don't miss this Video on it!

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Show Notes Transcript

NEW! Text Us Direct Here!

Kurt Long  CEO and founder of BUNKR ( an affordable all-in-one app with secure messaging, password management, and secure file storage.

We discuss new approaches to safe and private messaging apps, how to keep criminals out of your private data, and why online privacy is important to freedom.


  • 01:09 Kurt Long's Work at the Kennedy Space Center
  • 10:14 The Importance of Healthcare Security
  • 20:45 The Risks and Implications of Deepfake Technology
  • 25:51 Introduction to Bunker
  • 27:00 Bunker's Pricing and Affordability
  • 30:06 Bunker's Architecture and Zero Trust Approach
  • 34:33 Issues with Other Messaging Apps
  • 36:33 Balancing Privacy, Security, and Accountability
  • 44:00 Compliance and Finance
  • 49:31 Vision for Privacy, Security, and Accountability

Try KiteWorks today at

Don't Miss our Video on this Exciting KiteWorks Offer!

Click the link above or text 904-867-4468, 2014652: and leave your message!

You can now text our Podcast Studio direct. Ask questions, suggest guests and stories. 

We Look Forward To Hearing From You!

Try KiteWorks today at

Don't miss this Video on it!

The Most Secure Managed File Transfer System. 

Custom handmade Women's Clothing, Plushies & Accessories at Portions of your purchase go to Mental Health Awareness efforts.

Kurt Long  CEO and founder of BUNKR ( an affordable all-in-one app with secure messaging, password management, and secure file storage.
We discuss new approaches to safe and private messaging apps, how to keep criminals out of your private data, and why online privacy is important to freedom.
• 01:09 Kurt Long's Work at the Kennedy Space Center
• 10:14 The Importance of Healthcare Security
• 20:45 The Risks and Implications of Deepfake Technology
• 25:51 Introduction to Bunker
• 27:00 Bunker's Pricing and Affordability
• 30:06 Bunker's Architecture and Zero Trust Approach
• 34:33 Issues with Other Messaging Apps
• 36:33 Balancing Privacy, Security, and Accountability
• 44:00 Compliance and Finance
• 49:31 Vision for Privacy, Security, and Accountability

Topics: New Ways to Take Control Over Data Privacy
new ways to take control over data privacy, new approaches to safe and private messaging apps, new approaches to safe and private messaging, new approaches to secure cloud messaging, new messaging apps improving privacy and security, new security risks from messaging apps, new ways to protect personal data privacy, new ways to protect your data privacy, online safety and security technology, privacy and security in new technology, unknown security risks from messaging apps, why online privacy is important to a free country, why online privacy is important to family security, why online privacy is important to freedom, why online privacy is important to personal freedom

D. Mauro (00:03.202)
Well, welcome everybody to Cybercrime Junkies. I am your host, David Mauro and we have a special guest with us here today. But before we introduce our special guest, I am joined by my positive, always happy and intriguing co -host, Mark Mosher. Mark, how are you?

Kurt Long (00:03.982)

Kurt Long (00:22.606)

Mark Mosher (00:23.294)
I love the introduction. Thank you, David. Hey, you know, I do get excited when we have some really great guests on and we always have some really great guests. I am really excited today to have this man in the studio. Tell us who's joining us today.

D. Mauro (00:28.61)

D. Mauro (00:40.354)
We are joined by Kurt Long. And while you may not know his name, you certainly know his work. So he's the CEO and founder of Bunker. We're going to get into what that is and the benefits that we can all leverage in it and his mission behind the creation of Bunker and what they're driving for the public to secure our private data and.

Kurt Long (01:04.654)

D. Mauro (01:09.186)
communicate safely. But prior to that, he held various advisory roles, major tech organizations, led and initiated and created several leading technology companies. Starting years ago before that, worked on the Hubble Space Shuttle. He was a data bank engineer at Lockheed Martin, involved with the Hubble telescope at the Kennedy Space Center.

and thereafter was a software engineer at IBM. So kind of bumping in, running the same circles that you and I did, Mark, back in the day. I don't know how we didn't meet earlier, Kurt. Welcome to the studio, sir.

Mark Mosher (01:48.158)
Yo, absolutely. Yeah, I don't know how our paths didn't cross current. I'm sure I met him. Right?

Kurt Long (01:54.03)
Yes. Thank you. Thank you for having David and Mark. Looking forward to it today.

D. Mauro (01:58.754)
Well, yeah, we are honored to have you on. So a little bit of background. So what was it that got you into wanting to go into engineering and the technology field originally? I'm always interested in people's origin stories.

Kurt Long (02:16.27)

Yeah, originally I grew up in Florida and a person of my age, you could see the Apollo as a child. You could see the Apollo launches at night from across the state. And then a couple of few days later, you'd look on television and there'd be astronauts on the moon and you felt connected to it. And somewhere around the age of 13, I wrote a letter to Kennedy Space Center and they wrote back.

D. Mauro (02:27.138)
Sure. Yeah.

Kurt Long (02:48.334)
and told about the programs in the future. And that small token that they actually wrote back made it real to me. And that became kind of the inspiration for the start of my career, which was at Kennedy Space Center. Luckily enough, I did work in the, for Lockheed Space Operations and the real time space shuttle launch data bank and was able to participate in Venus Radar Mapper and Ulysses, which went to the sun.

D. Mauro (02:55.106)

Kurt Long (03:17.39)
Galileo, which went to Jupiter and launched probes in the Jupiter. And my ultimate goal was to be able to say I contributed in some way to the launch and the deployment of Hubble Space Telescope, which is just still ticking today. And that's how I got my initial start.

D. Mauro (03:33.25)
That's absolutely remarkable. Where did you do your schooling at? I know, but I would like you to share it.

Kurt Long (03:38.158)
Yeah, no worries. University of Florida, which is today's number one ranked public school, according to the Wall Street Journal. I graduated there, went to the University of South Florida and pursued a master's degree in theoretical mathematics. And then ultimately, yeah.

D. Mauro (03:41.986)
Mm -hmm.

D. Mauro (03:47.746)

D. Mauro (03:59.106)
So not real math, so you didn't want to do real math. You just wanted to do the theoretical math, is that what I'm understanding? So.

Mark Mosher (04:02.558)
How did that work?

Kurt Long (04:06.062)
You know, I still held out that I was a real smart guy, I thought. And then you go, you know, and think of physics and math. And I did well, I don't want to paint a picture that I didn't do well, but you easily discover that in the realms of theoretical physics and math, you know, you get humbled pretty fast by the people who are there and you're like, pursuing it and they're in it to win it. And you're like, oh, so I should just graduate and

D. Mauro (04:10.85)
Ha ha.

D. Mauro (04:15.138)

D. Mauro (04:26.306)
Pursuing that, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Kurt Long (04:35.438)
apply this to some other career, but I'm not going to win a Fields Prize in math or a Nobel Prize in physics. That's not going to happen.

D. Mauro (04:44.258)
That's wonderful. Share with us about your work when you first began working through Lockheed and working at the Space Center. Did you feel like it was a dream come true since you were a boy? What was it like in the day to day now that you look back after many years it reflect on?

Kurt Long (05:06.638)
Yes, it was a dream come true and it remains a dream come true. And, uh, just the, it was surreal because we worked literally across the street from the vehicle assembly building. You know, we were in something called complex D. And so I would walk outside each day and you would see the shuttle, the orbiter, you know, SRBs being moved around by the crawlers or we could, we were allowed to go over into the VAP and you would see them.

stacking the boosters or you could go to the orbital processing facility, the OPF. Now you had to have a special clearance or pass to get into the OPF. And we could go there and literally you'd come in on launch days and the lights you could see literally from 30 miles away, the whole drive in of the orbiter and the vehicle and the pad, same pads that SpaceX launches after off of today's pad A, pad B. And you would, the enormity of it all.

D. Mauro (05:40.994)

Kurt Long (06:04.046)
Um, just the absolute enormity and there's this simultaneous thing of feeling super, super important to be a part of it, but like super, super humbled, super small, you know, so this idea of feeling like you were part of something bigger than yourself and you just did, I didn't mind it. It was amazing. You didn't think of your, the smallness of it. You only thought of how lucky you were to be a part of it.

D. Mauro (06:11.01)
And then super small, right? Yeah.

D. Mauro (06:29.89)
That's absolutely good.

Mark Mosher (06:31.006)
So it seems like it would be just mind blowing to be on site for one of the launches. So were you at Kennedy for any of the launches? And if so, what was the most memorable? There was one that just hit you in the chest more than the others?

Kurt Long (06:47.31)
Uh, you know, it's, uh, yes is the short answer. Yes. We stand outside the LCC, the launch control center. Um, only later did I realize that we were standing outside, um, closest humans to the pads and the LCC was right behind us, but they had like these louvered doors that could shut if anything went wrong, um, on the pad. And then we were on the outside and you're like, maybe I should have thought this through.

D. Mauro (07:08.322)
And you guys were on the outside of them?

Mark Mosher (07:11.582)
You're not wrong.

D. Mauro (07:13.218)
That would be us. Yeah.

Kurt Long (07:15.31)
And literally you would just kind of hear and feel the rumble of the shuttle launching come across you from three miles away. And ultimately the sound waves would press all your clothes back against your body. Physically your clothes would be pressed back against you. And, you know, that was something you'll never forget. And the windows would rattle across Brevard County and on the landings.

that you would hear the double entry of the nose creating, they were kind of blunt edges. If you think about the shuttle, it has two blunt edges. It's the nose and then the wings. And you would hear the sonic booms of the shuttle returning all across Brevard County, but particularly if, you know, if you were there on site when they landed at Kennedy instead of Edwards. And then the memories, you know, the night launches were particularly spectacular.

D. Mauro (07:52.706)
Mm -hmm.

D. Mauro (08:14.274)
See that.

Kurt Long (08:14.446)
And, you know, on the difficult side, you know, I was there for Challenger, standing outside when we lost Challenger. That's why I went back and, yeah, I went back and got a master's degree in the theoretical math at that time, came back and applied that math degree to the program. You know, and just seeing, you know, the takeaways from that are seeing, you know, these are amazing men and women of the program that both

D. Mauro (08:22.53)
Ugh, were you really? Ugh.

Kurt Long (08:43.79)
support the missions, go on the missions. But on that one, you know, the, the idea that, you know, just how hard everyone had worked for quality control. And it, I've never been involved in anything where we worked harder and my bosses were harder on me for quality control than that group of people. So we weren't flipping and these, everyone was devastated. But what impressed upon me is we were going to keep going. The astronaut corps didn't flinch. They kept going.

D. Mauro (08:53.09)

D. Mauro (09:05.666)

Kurt Long (09:13.518)
the men and women of the program while we all cried on that day and days after, absolutely got up and kept going. I was like, oh, so this is how you do it. You might suffer a loss, but you're going to learn all these lessons from it. You're going to take it in and you're going to keep going and we're going to persist and we're going to keep going toward the vision. And so being part of something bigger than myself and persisting in the mission through difficulty with the examples of great men and women influenced me foundationally the entirety of my life.

D. Mauro (09:44.706)
Phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal. Yeah. So as you have a lot of accolades, so I don't want to like rattle them all off and all of the companies that you've bought or been part of advisory councils, because we could be here for like two hours. Let's not do that. You've had a great career. You've done a lot of good. And one of the organizations that you did was Fair Warning. So back in the day, I've had a lot of health care.

Mark Mosher (09:45.63)
That's a great insight. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah.

Kurt Long (09:54.574)
Mm. Mm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

D. Mauro (10:14.21)
healthcare security, healthcare IT experience. So fair warning, can you walk us through fair warnings mission? They were ultimately acquired by Improvada, but they were in what? Over 8 ,000 healthcare organizations and facilities across the US. What was fair warning? What did it serve to do?

Kurt Long (10:34.862)

Kurt Long (10:39.79)
Um, just briefly, the origin story is that somewhere around 2004 recognized that eventually the bad guys would make it to healthcare because, uh, they had the same information and more as a lot of financial organizations and the banks and the finance companies, especially the banks had gotten, they tightened it up. I mean, they, you know, you had to be pretty determined. Yeah. And so I ended a lot of cock.

D. Mauro (11:00.898)
Yeah, they were forced to. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Kurt Long (11:07.822)
cocktail conversations by telling people we were going to do info security and healthcare because they had a reputation of slow and not value and security. But we persisted and we, you know, just persisted over time. And ultimately the idea, and we did this in patents as well, technology and execution was we invented the category of patient privacy monitoring.

which said we're going to examine the activities around healthcare records and the many applications that support healthcare and that we will watch for signatures of identity theft and other kinds of information crime. And I always wanted to tell this. I don't think I've ever told it publicly. On the first day we ever ran the product in a customer environment, my CTO, he called and he goes,

hurt, we found 80 incidents. I mean, what do you mean? And you know, it's always like, it's early on. And you're like, what? Like that's in your head, in your heart, you're like, oh, I'm going to get this really good news, kind of like, I know that sounds bad to say really good news, but we didn't know, we weren't sure. And then it's going to find out, well, it's not real. Well, it was real. And on the first day, the first time we ever ran the product,

D. Mauro (12:00.546)

Mark Mosher (12:10.91)
Right, right.

D. Mauro (12:13.506)

D. Mauro (12:22.114)

Kurt Long (12:22.19)
It was people looking at VIPs and looking at their neighbors and looking at their coworkers. They were going crazy. And so it, to be forthright, it went from there. I mean, that was pretty innocuous cases over time that became medical identity theft. And you, you probably know that the payloads of a medical payload on the dark web became something like $50 versus a financial payload of $5.

D. Mauro (12:40.418)
Mm -hmm.

Mark Mosher (12:48.542)
Mm -hmm.

Kurt Long (12:48.782)
It became opioid redistribution and Medicare fraud and it exploded into all these different scenarios, including anonymous attacks on medical centers to show that the government of a certain state knew about lead levels in the water. And so we were at the forefront of that and felt like we did. We had a great business and super proud of everybody, but also a profitable business that ultimately had a.

D. Mauro (12:58.85)
Yep. Yep.

Kurt Long (13:16.782)
positive financial outcome. And at some point in there, I needed a break for that after about 15 years of seeing what humanity was capable of and living that every single day and like, okay, I need a little break from this. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, all right, I need a break. Because you can't make the crimes up like you there's you can't think.

Mark Mosher (13:26.878)
Bye bye.

D. Mauro (13:28.93)
You mean the world that we live in, like we're on the Cybercrime Junkies podcast. This is our world. Yeah. No, you don't need to. There's never. Yeah. And as our listeners know, there's never a lack of content. There is so much. We just literally figure out what should we report on? Like, what should we talk about this time? Because there's so much coming every single day. It's. Please do. Yes.

Mark Mosher (13:30.718)
I can fucking wear on ya. I can wear on ya.

Kurt Long (13:55.854)
have to tell one quick story was your, I saw you interviewed Brett Johnson, right? So I was listening to, Oh God, that's when you listen to him go through the things and out my, the one that stuck with me is the IRS tax fraud thing. Because what would happen at the hospitals is they would pay the registration desk for patient information sufficient to create a tax return.

D. Mauro (14:00.29)
Yes, the original cybercrime godfather.

Mark Mosher (14:00.446)
Ha ha ha.

D. Mauro (14:12.77)

D. Mauro (14:21.506)
Mm -hmm.

Kurt Long (14:21.646)
And when that thing hit, it went nuts because they would have literally houses with people filling out false tax returns. And so when I was lit and we would try to guard against that, we would have to monitor for exports of pay. And so when I heard Brett telling this term, like, so you're the dude that you're the guy, you're the guy. Like, and it wasn't just that.

D. Mauro (14:28.994)

Mark Mosher (14:38.494)
That was you! No, exactly. We'll see that we connect the dots, right?

D. Mauro (14:38.53)
He is the dude. Yes. He's the dude that did it. Do you know how many stories he's tied to? Like we've met him in person. We, yeah, he's really good. He's tied to so many stories. Like there's this one story with the largest crypto exchange in Canada, Gerald Cotton, who either disappeared or died at a very young age. And then all of a sudden we find out through Brett that he worked for him.

Kurt Long (14:49.87)

Kurt Long (15:02.286)

D. Mauro (15:07.266)
Like he had worked for Shadow Crew back in the day. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so crazy. He was like the original godfather of the dark web. Like.

Mark Mosher (15:07.486)

Kurt Long (15:07.95)

Mark Mosher (15:12.126)

Kurt Long (15:16.526)

Mark Mosher (15:16.798)
You know, you know, the interesting thing about him, Kurt, is he is actually like that all the time in person on video. He's always like he's always on.

Kurt Long (15:19.566)

D. Mauro (15:22.306)
Oh yeah, he's like that all the time. He is always in character. Yes.

Kurt Long (15:22.318)
Is that right?

Well, he is a bright creative guy. There's no doubt about that. Now he's got his self aligned for the, hopefully the force of good. I think he is.

Mark Mosher (15:30.846)
Right, yes.

D. Mauro (15:31.298)

D. Mauro (15:35.522)
Oh, he absolutely is. He absolutely is. Yeah. And you know, and that's not it's hard, right? Like when you know how to do it illegally, right? And you could do it a lot easier legally, but you value, you know, liberty more and he values his family more. And so it makes perfect sense. But so let me ask you about fair warning before we transfer away from that topic. Would it alert the actual?

Mark Mosher (15:35.55)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kurt Long (15:52.366)


D. Mauro (16:03.298)
individuals or would it alert the hospitals? Like the hospitals. Okay, that's what I thought. Yeah.

Kurt Long (16:06.446)
hospitals, meaning designated persons at the hospitals. And then over time, we added a managed service team that became super successful. Because like, in the end, they did not really have the right people to sufficiently investigate. And then everything we ever did, you had to have the psychology of this is going to a court case. This is legally, you know, it's got to be

Mark Mosher (16:08.35)

D. Mauro (16:12.002)

D. Mauro (16:15.714)
Makes sense.

D. Mauro (16:31.49)

Mark Mosher (16:32.03)

D. Mauro (16:34.082)
chain of custody, you have to figure out chain of custody, all of it. Yep.

Kurt Long (16:35.502)
chain, the whole thing, all of it. And so that was the business we're in. I tried to impart that people have a hard time believing that what they do is that impactful. But over time with story, you could communicate everything we do has to stand up in the court of law. And so we got really, really good at that and did that for our customers, for many of them. Others could do it for themselves, but they tended to be the really big sophisticated enterprises.

Mark Mosher (16:38.078)
Yeah, I'll bet it's, yep.

Mark Mosher (16:51.134)
Mm -hmm.

D. Mauro (17:04.706)
It was a much harder sell back in 2004 too, right? Because cyber crime wasn't in the news. I mean, it really wasn't until, what Mark, 2011, 2013, that it really, when they started productizing the malware and creating the ransomware as a service gangs, they really got organized. And now if it's a ball game, they're winning right now. So, you know.

Mark Mosher (17:08.126)

Kurt Long (17:08.366)

Mark Mosher (17:13.662)
2011. Yeah.

Kurt Long (17:22.542)
That's right.

They did.

Mark Mosher (17:32.062)
Yep, the score is 715 to 2.

Kurt Long (17:34.318)

D. Mauro (17:34.978)
Yeah, right now they're winning, but I'll tell you there've been a lot of strides in the last year by international law enforcement that are pretty exciting to watch. But yeah, it's good. So tell us, and then one of the things since you've evolved, you're driven by the Long Family Force for Good Foundation. Could you share with ladies and gentlemen what that is?

Mark Mosher (17:44.478)
Mm -hmm.

Kurt Long (17:44.654)

Kurt Long (17:54.766)
Hmm? Hmm?

Kurt Long (17:59.502)
It's been an evolution. We always did a lot in philanthropy over the last, say, at least 15 years. Let's just say 15 years. And initially I thought of things as like, you want to provide goods and maybe programs to people who otherwise can't have them. But they always have unintended consequences. So for example, just take a famous shoe company that might give away a pair of shoes when they sell shoes.

D. Mauro (18:19.394)

D. Mauro (18:22.978)
Mm -hmm.

Kurt Long (18:29.326)
And maybe they give away those shoes to someone in Africa or an underprivileged place. And what you start figuring out is, oh, wow. So there's an entrepreneur in Africa who wants to make shoes and sell those shoes locally. And that would be a livelihood and that would create an economic ecosystem. So whenever you're giving all these things away, there's a consequence, an unintended consequence that needs to be

D. Mauro (18:55.33)
Right, unintended consequence.

Kurt Long (18:57.71)
So we really got behind the idea of building people spiritually and maybe making them do the work and providing frameworks for them to think about it. So something that we'll announce publicly, I guess I'm announcing it here, but it's been signed. Yeah, is like with the Hamilton Center at the University of Florida, we just made a $1 million donation toward what's called

D. Mauro (19:13.73)
You heard it first here, folks.

Mark Mosher (19:15.934)

Kurt Long (19:26.126)
civil discourse, the idea that we could talk to each other without escalating. And there the president of the university is committed to teaching that specific course to a population of 50 ,000, 55 ,000 persons over time. And we think that's fundamental to society of listen, we have to be able to control ourselves.

D. Mauro (19:30.37)
I love it.

D. Mauro (19:47.202)
Absolutely. I love hearing that. Yeah.

Kurt Long (19:51.054)
So that would be an example. We're going to have more announcements, but that would be an example. There's many, many others that we're doing, but that one I'm particularly proud of because we've lost that in our society.

D. Mauro (20:02.05)
Yeah, you should be proud of that. I mean.

Mark Mosher (20:02.75)
I think right now that is such a crucial initiative. I mean, at this point in history, but all of civilization, nothing could be more meaningful than exactly what you just described, or at least in my opinion, that's the way I see it.

Kurt Long (20:10.958)

D. Mauro (20:17.058)
Yeah, I mean, we've really polar, we've become very polarized and some of it, technology is not helping, right? Because of the algorithms and the way they're based, somebody will hear an event that occurs, right? Some tragic event or some other event. And because of our feeds and what we're pro our proclivities, right, we'll hear it through this filter. Someone else at another part of the country or in the same part of the country, but has a different political outlet.

Kurt Long (20:17.646)
I think that's right.

Kurt Long (20:30.766)

Kurt Long (20:40.206)

D. Mauro (20:45.602)
Outlook or whatever has a different algorithm. They're going to see it in a totally different way. And we're coming at odds based on how we receive the information right from the beginning. And so we really do need that that ability for for civil discourse.

Kurt Long (20:46.19)

Kurt Long (20:57.23)

Kurt Long (21:02.99)
I feel like we've lost a truth making process for the modern world. Like I bet you all of us suspect, at least all of us would agree that anytime you read something now, you just don't know whether it's true, whether it's from your favorite news source, your least favorite news source, you read it and you're like, I, it's probably true. It might be true, but I'm going to, how long is it going to take me to figure out if it's true? It's going to take a while. So we've,

D. Mauro (21:08.418)
Mm -hmm.

D. Mauro (21:20.034)

D. Mauro (21:29.378)
Well, and with it. Yeah. And with advancements in technology like synthetic media, deep fake. Yeah. I mean, we have a whole series on deep fake coming up in the next couple of weeks. And it is brutal. Like the advancement just in the last six months where they now are launching, you know, live stream capabilities for deep fake, where video and audio, you can just program it to have a certain

Mark Mosher (21:34.558)
Like AI, deepfakes, everything now.

Kurt Long (21:37.166)

Kurt Long (21:54.414)

D. Mauro (21:58.562)
background and education and let it go. And it will just be you answering questions like this. I mean, if that really goes the way it is, the benefit will be I won't even have to do these podcasts. I'll just like put it on and be like, here's the guest, here's the guest bio, ask him some good questions. And I'll watch myself. I'm like, I could ask that one better. Let me let me jump in there.

Kurt Long (22:02.158)

Mark Mosher (22:11.07)
Yeah, just deploy the AI bot, right?

Kurt Long (22:12.014)

Kurt Long (22:17.166)
Yeah. I mean...

Kurt Long (22:21.55)
You guys probably saw the Hong Kong 20 million. That was the first one. Is that the first one you guys had seen where it was literally a group video fake? Had you seen anything before that?

D. Mauro (22:24.386)
Yes, we were just talking about that.

Mark Mosher (22:24.766)
Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking of. That's exactly what I was thinking of.

D. Mauro (22:33.378)
Yeah, it really was. I mean, the FBI had alerted back in July 22 of deepfakes where people were applying in the US. Several hundred examples, keep in mind, where people were applying for remote jobs and they were deepfaking those videos. They were operating under stolen credentials. Several hundred people had been hired, given the keys to access to company.

networks and then we're stealing that data. So the FBI issued that alert, but we have not seen the level like we did in that Hong Kong banking. For listeners who haven't seen the DeepFake episode, because it hasn't launched yet, but what happened there was CFO located in the United Kingdom emails, does business email compromise, right? So somebody impersonating the CFO in the United Kingdom emails,

Kurt Long (23:03.95)

Mark Mosher (23:08.606)
not like not like Hong Kong.

Kurt Long (23:10.989)

D. Mauro (23:30.722)
person in Hong Kong asking for 20, several wire transfers for a secret transaction, confidential transaction for the organization. They question the email and they say no. And the CFO gets them on a video call with seven or eight other people. All of those other people were deep faked other than the mark, other than the target person. And they convinced the person,

They were there live. He or she could ask questions, right? Get the questions addressed. And they proceeded to make multiple transactions totaling approximately the equivalent of $25 million in the US. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. It's absolutely crazy.

Mark Mosher (24:12.702)
25, yeah.

Kurt Long (24:12.814)
Yes, crazy. And we know there's more to come, right? We all know this is the start.

D. Mauro (24:21.378)
No, I think that was the shot across the bow. I think that was the very first. There are so many groups as we look at dark web chatter that are formulating campaigns around this now. So we're going to see in the with the scary thing is not. That because every good invention has misuse and abuse, every good medicine has misuse and abuse. We get it right, but the medicine outweighs the misuse and abuse, but.

Mark Mosher (24:23.87)
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

D. Mauro (24:49.506)
What's scary is the organizations, at least here in the United States, we work with them every day, every week. Not one of them has deepfake detection on their initiatives, right? Like, what is your plan for deepfake detection? Like, it's not even on the whiteboard yet. That's the scary thing is this is real. This is coming. We see it coming and nobody's prepared. And that's what concerns me.

Mark Mosher (25:03.166)

Kurt Long (25:04.686)

Mark Mosher (25:06.782)
It's not even on the whiteboard.

Kurt Long (25:09.326)
Crazy. Crazy.

D. Mauro (25:19.714)
So if you want to jump in that pool right now, like if you want to come out of retirement a little and save the day for that, that would be, we could use some theoretical math help on that, is what I'm saying.

Kurt Long (25:22.798)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Mark Mosher (25:23.774)
I think you can make a difference. I think you can make a difference.

Kurt Long (25:32.142)
Yeah, you know, so the watermark, you know, they're trying to have this watermark initiative. Um, it looks like the deployment of that wide scale and the application of it to video is going to be a handful, but I'll leave it to the PhDs. Like I said, there was some, some PhDs there that, that had me in the math department. So I'll let them, uh, I'll let them use their, their will on that.

D. Mauro (25:38.562)

D. Mauro (25:45.666)

Mark Mosher (25:51.934)
I'm going to go.

D. Mauro (25:52.322)
All right. I just I possibly found your next calling. I just didn't know. So let's talk about let's talk about Bunker because Bunker is a very unique and you know, we're we're product agnostic on this podcast as well as in our professional lives. But this is something that all of us individually could use. And what I love about is you guys have made this extremely affordable for everybody.

Kurt Long (25:57.582)

Mark Mosher (25:57.918)
Yeah, good to me.

Kurt Long (26:08.59)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mark Mosher (26:10.75)
in life.

D. Mauro (26:20.45)
It is like 99 cents a year for the basic plan. And you get all the way up to, I believe, what is it? Eleven dollars for the pro plan a year. So.

Kurt Long (26:24.718)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Kurt Long (26:30.478)
Yeah. Yeah. We're going to raise the price on that pro plan, but I want to keep the 99 cent version as long as we can. And we will, because it's kind of like this idea that everyone on earth deserves bank level security. And we want to keep that spirit. And of course we'll add new things and we'll eventually that pro plan will get more expensive. But I love the 99 cent thing and it's worked really well.

Mark Mosher (26:31.262)

D. Mauro (26:35.778)
I think you're fine doing that. I think that's fair.

D. Mauro (26:42.049)
Mm -hmm.

D. Mauro (26:47.81)
Mm -hmm.

D. Mauro (26:54.018)

D. Mauro (27:00.226)
Yeah, so let's share from a high level. From my understanding, it can operate as a password manager, a secure messaging, right, where it's invite only, secure cloud storage. You create files and then you share those out. It blocks SMS attacks. So it blocks the spam. It blocks, you know, smishing attacks. And it's.

Kurt Long (27:07.214)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

D. Mauro (27:27.234)
security at a level of banking so it meets compliance standards. Wow.

Kurt Long (27:31.214)
Yeah. I mean, so the first thing and you're, you know, I saw the question, you know, before it has said what, you know, talk about how to protect yourself. And I want to do that just a little bit. And that is we have the, the public has to accept first and businesses as well. So I can blur this together into business and public. You have to accept there are bad people on this planet.

D. Mauro (27:44.642)
Yeah, pleased.

D. Mauro (27:55.554)

D. Mauro (27:59.49)

Kurt Long (28:00.526)
And they prey upon the vulnerable. It's a hard thing for people to get their head around because most people are pretty good. And if they see someone in trouble, they're thinking, how can I help? Or I need to tell them how to help them. It's how bad guys work. They love it when someone is vulnerable and they're going to exploit that. And it's even better if they're a high value target. So the first part is like, accept that. And then the spirit of bunker.

is the same thing you would do in a business. It's reduce the attack surfaces. I've always loved the idea of in a business that to say, where's the most valuable information and then where are the attack surfaces to get there? And so in the, for the public individual users, families, you know, normal people, same applies to business, but the first attack is like password. So let's mean we all know how, how.

D. Mauro (28:33.826)
Mm -hmm.

D. Mauro (28:55.458)

Kurt Long (28:57.838)
Passwords are exploited and sold on the dark web and stuff account stuffing all these things Yeah, they reuse it all these things

D. Mauro (29:01.346)
Everybody's got a good password, but they reuse it. They all reuse it. Right? That's the biggest danger.

Mark Mosher (29:05.022)
No, nobody would do that. Nobody would do that.

Kurt Long (29:11.022)
So we're like, let's have a password manager. And then if we think in terms of attack vectors, email and text remain these attack vectors that are, they were never really designed as is as communication protocols or communication methods for conducting commerce. And so they allow imposters to reach out to you. So if your information, whether it's a phone number, your email address winds up on the dark web.

D. Mauro (29:24.13)

Kurt Long (29:39.982)
you're going to get imposters come in. So you're like, well, how do you eliminate that? Well, it's invitation only messaging where you have to know the person and accept the invite or send an invite and that you have to mutually agree. And that gets rid of all the spam that gets rid of all the, all the imposters coming at you. Um, and then, and then the secure documents, um,

having those compromised, whether it's your sole secure number, account information, wiring instructions is a huge one. Every week I talk to someone who has a friend. And so we wanted to combine that all into a single product that every family could afford and literally eliminate. And the architecture of this thing is such that it's zero trust interiorly.

D. Mauro (30:13.698)

Kurt Long (30:32.75)
attack vectors eliminated other than a specific port that we can monitor and have authentication around and access tokens internally and nail the dang thing down and make it easy enough for a family or individual use to use. That's the spirit of it. Mark and David.

Mark Mosher (30:53.118)
I like that. I like that a lot.

D. Mauro (30:54.082)
And it's a mobile app. It operates on Apple devices as well as Android devices. Is it also available on like a browser like a PC or Mac or is it mostly mobile? Oh, desktop. Okay, very good.

Kurt Long (31:05.678)
Yeah, it's a, I'd call it desktop. So it, yeah. So I would just, I would call it desktop and it's a self -contained secure platform on your desktop. We, we eliminated any browser access. We felt like that had security issues. We ran that in the early days a little bit. Felt like maybe corporate clients could use that, but ultimately year, year ago just said, no, we're just taking that off the table. So it's Google, Android.

D. Mauro (31:22.306)

Kurt Long (31:35.086)
iPhone desktop on Mac desktop on Microsoft as well.

D. Mauro (31:40.354)
That's fantastic. And the price point is great. When you've had conversations with organizations, is there any pushback? Do people not believe it or do they not find the value in it? I'm just curious, what could there be challenges? Why have I not heard about this before I had you on the podcast is my question. Why is this not on the Super Bowl halftime show?

Kurt Long (32:01.23)
credibility I

D. Mauro (32:10.114)
ad other than maybe that's really expensive and maybe not useful. But I mean, CrowdStrike was on there. They stopped breaches, apparently. So, you know, I just want to I just want to know.

Mark Mosher (32:13.566)
Thank you.

Kurt Long (32:14.03)
W -W -W -W -


Kurt Long (32:21.262)
Um, well, first off, we brought to market a year ago. I mean, we just, not even a year ago. So we just brought to market and went through the process of that. So we've kept it pretty low, um, low profile. We're expanding that now, but you know, before I get too far down that path, I want to say from pushback, right? Who do you trust today in the world of tech? Like, so we're, I expect, and I would be disappointed.

D. Mauro (32:42.498)
Yeah. Right.

Kurt Long (32:49.614)
if people aren't skeptical to say who are these people and should I trust them with my most important information? Because that's the ask. We're asking to trust us with your most important information and we're going to have to earn trust in the marketplace. And we're doing that by involving all kinds of great people. You can see some of those people.

D. Mauro (32:54.146)
Right. Yep.


D. Mauro (33:09.25)
Your board of advisors is stellar, by the way. Your board of

Kurt Long (33:13.07)
Including we want them to try to break in like gray hats, white hats. You know, we've involved great people. I interrupted you David, but we're going to have to earn credibility in the market. And I expect to do that. And I'd be disappointed if we didn't have to. And we'll do that over time. And you know, we're growing a lot. But we're going to have to earn trust in the market. It's going to be the number one issue. And I have no problem with that.

D. Mauro (33:17.25)

D. Mauro (33:22.85)

D. Mauro (33:41.026)
That's fantastic. I love the mission behind it. Yeah. No, it's very helpful. I mean, it's something that, especially families, right? Because so many families barely do anything. Like they don't really take the step to focus on security. So this is a very low bar for entry to, and I don't mean just the price point. I mean, convenience wise, you've really made it very simple.

Mark Mosher (33:42.142)
Yeah, that's a good album. Yeah.

D. Mauro (34:10.69)
to use and very simple to engage. And one of the things we haven't talked about yet is it really does protect against some of the risks in a lot of these other messaging apps. So share with us what your experience is with some of the other messaging apps, because there's a lot of issues with them, aren't there?

Kurt Long (34:33.294)
All right, so I'm going to, I'm going to get off the reservation on this. In other words, you may or may not agree with what I'm about to say. And I welcome the, yeah. So here's. Look, here's on the messenger platforms. You know, when we talk about attack surfaces, this is what I've come to see play out in the marketplace.

D. Mauro (34:41.154)
I believe you know that we've had Brett Johnson on the show. So the platform is yours, man. Go ahead. Like, I'm just kidding.

Mark Mosher (34:44.19)
This is not an uncomfortable place for us at all.

Kurt Long (35:01.742)
Is like email and text are just so vulnerable to data collection, man in the middle attacks. And you know, you know, apples move their policies around the encryption techniques around. So I don't want to throw Apple completely in that category, but in general, email and text make you super vulnerable to data collection and to imposter and tax. And then you say, well, what about direct messengers? And so we kind of get into this WhatsApp category.

D. Mauro (35:05.954)

D. Mauro (35:30.018)
Mm -hmm.

Kurt Long (35:30.35)
Snapchat category. And then, and then they're, they're kind of in, and even wicker when wicker was around and, and then what's the, you still have the imposters, then you get into signal and now you're going to have dot talks. I don't know if you're following talks and matrix and what's happened.

D. Mauro (35:37.634)
Mm -hmm.

D. Mauro (35:48.61)
Of course. Yeah. I mean, I mean, if you get if you get attacked in a ransomware attack, the first thing you have to do is go figure out talks and get on a talks channel and start negotiating with a Russian ransomware gang. So people will eventually find out all about talks channels. But.

Mark Mosher (35:57.118)

Kurt Long (35:57.326)

Mark Mosher (36:03.39)
I'll find out all about that.

Kurt Long (36:04.654)
So do you really, Mark? That's a side. So here we go. Here's my assertion is that what has happened in the tech industry over time, and I've been a part of it. I've been on the journey and didn't notice, but we've really allowed a culture of crime to break out in our country. And the tech world is supporting that.

Mark Mosher (36:07.294)

Kurt Long (36:33.454)
And whether it's that we've legalized drug use in some states or whether it's that we don't prosecute aggressively or there's all these factors where crime has become ubiquitous as we go outside our homes and even in our homes and you can feel it.

We all feel a little bit more under threat and we know that there's drug distribution about $1 .7 trillion of illicit drugs are used in the world. There are 150 million people involved in human trafficking that are enslaved in some way, $150 billion industry. There's about 6 .3 million sex workers, many of them children and...

What's happened is the secret messengers to be forthright, in my opinion, are the backbone, the communications backbone and used for the rendezvous points for all that. And you come, and so for me, it's like, I don't, I don't want government surveillance and I'm not a giant, uh, strict guy, but I want to live in a country that has some balanced law and order.

D. Mauro (37:30.978)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Kurt Long (37:49.774)
And as long as we're allowing these messengers to more and more and more support the needs, you know, we're out of balance on the Fourth Amendment is the best way to say it. So after Snowden and Assange, you kind of get this backlash against the Fourth Amendment privacy, the warrantless search. I was in that business. I understand it. We want to...

D. Mauro (38:04.77)

Kurt Long (38:17.454)
Guard against government surveillance and FISA 702. I get it. But the other side of the Fourth Amendment says that with a warrant, with a warrant, the government can collect evidence. And what's happened there is people who are victims of crimes, and I bet you all of us could sit here and tell crazy stories, maybe not directly against us, but people we know of crimes that are new.

Well, the government, whether it's the FBI, local, whatever it is, if there's a warrant, as citizens, we need to step up to the plate and take on the responsibility to say, well, listen, I agree to that Fourth Amendment. And these other secret messengers are completely blowing away that side of the Fourth Amendment. So what's the, bear with me one more second. So what does the government do?

D. Mauro (39:09.826)
Mm -hmm.

Kurt Long (39:12.206)
Well, what they do is like what happened to a dear friend of mine in Washington, DC, who was using a secret messenger to communicate with somebody that he did not know was an insider trader. So they had the, they, they knew that he was communicating, but they couldn't collect evidence. So what they do, the FBI comes to his house, busts the door down basically, and takes all of the electronics of the house.

D. Mauro (39:25.602)

Kurt Long (39:40.782)
This person was using disappearing messages, could never prove that he was not involved in insider trading during the prosecution of the insider trading. He winds up losing his job over it because he couldn't ever prove. And so when you see the takedowns, you know, I'll say it, P Diddy, I'm not defending P Diddy. I don't know P Diddy, but these guys are just going to bust doors down and they're going to take all your electronics because they can't.

D. Mauro (39:54.466)

Kurt Long (40:10.734)
they can't conduct kind of warranted search. You know, so my assertion is there needs to be an option in the marketplace and we're offering bunker to say privacy and security balanced with accountability. That's my thing.

D. Mauro (40:15.746)

D. Mauro (40:26.53)
Yeah, well, it's a really good point. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good point.

Mark Mosher (40:26.942)
I like the way you brought that all the way home there, Kurt. That was really good. That is perfect though, right? The accountability piece. Yeah, that was real. I get it now. That was my aha moment. Yeah, yeah, you really brought that full circle with the accountability. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kurt Long (40:30.126)
Was it good? It's the first time I've ever told it in public.

D. Mauro (40:35.906)

Yes, so what you're what you're saying

Kurt Long (40:39.438)
Was it really guys?

Thank you. Well, thank you for letting me do that.

D. Mauro (40:44.034)
Yeah. So what you're saying is we can keep our communications private, but we don't have to do that through a disappearing act that we can't control those servers or where those messages went so that we actually can prove, look, I was talking to them, but it was because we had a mutual friend from college. Look, I was not involved in any insider trading. Here's like I have the...

Kurt Long (40:51.246)
Mm -hmm.

Kurt Long (41:06.286)

Kurt Long (41:11.214)

D. Mauro (41:11.298)
If I'm a user of Bunker, I can show them my text with the person. Right? I own my data. Makes perfect sense.

Kurt Long (41:14.606)

Mark Mosher (41:15.709)
Yeah, I like that.

Kurt Long (41:17.07)
Yes. And just my thing is like, I believe in privacy. I fight for privacy. I really do. So, and so that fourth amendment says we have a right to privacy. But the other side of it is we've got to get law and order in a balanced way. And, you know, we got to trust something. And listen, we all know the court system might be liberal or concerned with this stuff, but it is the best system we have to bet on.

D. Mauro (41:24.162)

D. Mauro (41:35.65)

D. Mauro (41:45.634)
Correct. Yeah.

Kurt Long (41:46.094)
Otherwise, we just decay into absolute societal chaos, in my opinion.

D. Mauro (41:50.722)
So it's really important because you bring up a good point. So when we see these and no by no means is anybody here condoning or making a judgment one way or the other on P Diddy or anything like that. But the point is, is we like law enforcement doesn't have another option. You're leaving law enforcement without an option other than seizing everything and breaking in. Because if we don't grab your device, we can't

Kurt Long (42:02.862)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Kurt Long (42:15.502)

D. Mauro (42:19.362)
really get like you can't cut you can't issue subpoena to the talks to the company that owns talks because the owner is not controlled by our laws right there they're not located in New Hampshire right it's located in the eastern block we can't we can't get those feeds and so the only way of doing it is breaking down the door grabbing your device to see if you're doing it and if it's not there then you can't really even prove you didn't do it like you can't defend yourself.

Kurt Long (42:25.966)
Correct. That's correct.

Mark Mosher (42:26.302)
Yeah, right.

Kurt Long (42:34.51)

Kurt Long (42:46.798)
Yes. You know, there is, the government has only one other option and you're seeing this play out in Europe, which in which they're just like fine. We will just take over your phone, whether you know it or not. And we're going to surveil you without warrant. And so in the States that's FISA 702. Basically, I'm not saying that FISA 702 gives them the ability to hijack your phone, but FISA 702.

D. Mauro (43:01.474)

D. Mauro (43:05.25)


Kurt Long (43:14.67)
in the States, and this goes back 20 years, all the way back to the Patriot Act, so it's across all parties, the tendency will be for governments to aggressively surveil without permission, and I don't want to be a part of that, for sure, unless we can find a balance.

D. Mauro (43:31.778)
No, and this really, this separates that. This inoculates that need for them to have to do that. If more and more organizations created apps like this or more people would leverage apps like this, then you wouldn't have to have that problem. You wouldn't have to. First of all, there wouldn't be surveillance because it's all private. It's all locked down. There's a very limited attack service. And then B, you're accountable, meaning...

you now can prove that you're innocent or that you were guilty, right? And so it's really good. If you're not doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about, right? It is a really good way.

Kurt Long (44:05.006)
Yes. Yeah. So we have Stacey Arute.

Kurt Long (44:13.07)
Yeah. And we're also not going to give into, we're not going to give into surveillance. I mean, we're not going to give it. Yeah. Yeah. So like Stacey Arruda, she's an FBI veteran and she's still super active in the law enforcement community. She actually uses, um, bunker to take in tips from her field level informants. Because if something goes wrong with a field level informant, she wants to be able to prove like, Hey man, that's what, that's what the informant told me.

D. Mauro (44:16.738)

That's phenomenal.

Mark Mosher (44:39.166)

That's really smart.

Kurt Long (44:42.766)
You know, so she wants a path of accountability.

D. Mauro (44:42.786)

Mark Mosher (44:46.142)
That's really smart. I like that. Yeah.

D. Mauro (44:47.426)
It protects the chain of custody. It protects this person actually said this. It doesn't disappear and fall off to some random servers that nobody can track down or anything like that. Let me ask you, the secure cloud, where is the cloud located? I'm sure we'll be asked that. So I'm sure you've been asked that.

Kurt Long (44:50.062)

Kurt Long (44:59.022)

Kurt Long (45:05.518)
Um, it's distributed the clouds. You know, I don't want to name vendor names. Um, and I know that, I know that obfuscation is not a security technique. Um, but, but what I will say is that we've all from the very beginning of the company's development, we involved people from compliance and security that are the largest and best in the world, uh, from the very beginning and pardon me for my app obfuscation, but I'm going to do it anyway, cause it just saves one step. Um,

D. Mauro (45:09.794)
Okay, that's fine.

Mark Mosher (45:09.918)

D. Mauro (45:34.658)
No, that's perfectly fine. That's good. That's excellent. So it meets banking compliance regulations. So if somebody's using it, it's fully compliant. Do you guys provide, like if there's a compliance need or somebody's working at a bank and they are using this, do you provide the evidence that's needed to meet the compliance or whatever?

Kurt Long (45:35.31)
I - Yep. Okay.

Mark Mosher (46:02.59)
like an audit or an exam, something like that.

D. Mauro (46:05.058)
Yeah, or.

Kurt Long (46:05.518)
All right. So finance is pretty interesting. So what's happening in finance, you may or may not have followed this, but there, this thing I've described about the fourth amendment and the right to bet, have accountable than privacy and security. That's there's SEC laws called record keeping and Fennera as well. And there they've issued about $2 .5 billion of fines for the secret messenger apps.

D. Mauro (46:09.698)
Mm -hmm.

D. Mauro (46:25.538)

D. Mauro (46:33.889)
Mm -hmm.

Kurt Long (46:34.158)
So in that finance community, you have to provide this capability for the Securities Exchange Commission, because if they do have an insider trading case, you have to be able to provide the record -keeping evidentiary trail. And so there it's mandated by SEC, FINRA and the same for HIPAA as well, by the way.

D. Mauro (46:43.682)
Right, they have to be able to. Right.

D. Mauro (46:57.634)
Right. And so this complies with that. This, this allows you to do it because it allows you to say, here were the communications, right? And so that's phenomenal. That's great. And it's really, I saw several videos that you have on the site and it's so easy to use. You create folders, you've shared folders. It works kind of like Google drive. I know they're not similar, but I mean, it's that simple.

Kurt Long (47:00.27)

Kurt Long (47:19.918)

Kurt Long (47:25.966)
Hmm? It is.

D. Mauro (47:27.01)
It's that simple. It's very intuitive. You don't. I never needed a training on Google Drive. It's very intuitive. Like you can figure out how to do it. You can upload your images, everything. It's really good. Well, that's great. That's fantastic.

Kurt Long (47:32.558)
Yes. Yes.

Kurt Long (47:40.27)
Thank you. Well, that's the vision, guys. I mean, that's literally the vision is to just protect human beings. And I think that we've lost something by allowing ourselves. I'm going to give one last thing. I think we've done ourselves a disservice by allowing ourselves to be called consumers. I think we're a lot more than consumers. Consumers don't have rights, you know, so we've allowed our rights to be stripped back.

D. Mauro (48:00.61)

D. Mauro (48:04.738)

Kurt Long (48:08.302)
And we're more than that. We're people. You know, many of us are citizens, but whether you're a citizen or not, you're a human being. The United Nations Special Rapporteur on Privacy, there's rights and under the Fourth Amendment of our Constitution, we have rights. And I encourage all of us to think of our, to not allow ourselves to be thought of as consumers where, you know, you kind of have this thing, this dynamic now, now this isn't a reported crime.

But we all know that if you give someone your credit card, it's just, and they're billing you in a way you don't, it's like a battle to get somebody on the phone. And the only way to go through is the, is the credit card company. And we should, we should be better represented than that by our politicians. And we should have rights as human beings that extend into the tech arena. And I think that's the challenge of the 21st century. Can we take the lessons learned from the past that we know?

govern a society in a balance of freedoms and accountability? And can we take those concepts and extend them into the tech world so that we can flourish in freedom, privacy, security, and financially? And I think that's going to be a huge challenge that we all face in the 21st century. And I want to be a part of that, whatever we can, whatever Bunker can contribute.

D. Mauro (49:31.138)
Well, that's fantastic. And we appreciate your time and we appreciate the insight. And we really like what you're driving at with Bunker because I was curious when I saw the site and the information on privacy and security, that part I got, but accountability, I was like, well, I want to ask him about that. What does he mean? And now I understand because now it's about, yeah, it really does.

Mark Mosher (49:54.334)
Yeah, yeah, really got me with that one. The two sides of the forest with the accountability piece. The only thing that outdoes that for an aha moment for me in this episode, and I encourage the listeners to go back and listen again, is the initiative we have at Hamilton. And we appreciate you sharing that, that initiative at Hamilton is something else that's incredible. Man, I...

D. Mauro (50:01.506)

D. Mauro (50:09.378)
Yeah, check it out because

Mark Mosher (50:17.694)
Thank you, Kurt. I really enjoyed this. You're a good dude. I really feel like you are moving things in the right direction for all the right reasons. And man, if you ever need volunteers to come help dig a ditch or whatever, call me up. I've had a lot of practice digging ditches is the reason I reference ditches. So.

D. Mauro (50:21.154)
Absolutely. The intent is correct. Yep.

D. Mauro (50:31.554)
Yeah, there's a lot of ditch digging and application development, Mark.

Kurt Long (50:32.27)
Thank you.

D. Mauro (50:37.698)
Dude, this is what I get for having my Kentucky guy on the podcast. He's like, we'll dig a ditch, man. I will fire up. I will load up my truck with bourbon and we will head over there. I'm like, dude, they're working on app development. Just relax.

Mark Mosher (50:41.95)
Oh hey, if you ever run across, if you ever run across bread.

Kurt Long (50:43.214)

Mark Mosher (50:53.022)
If you ever run across Brett, be sure in reference to the fact that you're a gator, he went to you a case, so he's familiar with all those SEC college battles, you will get his attention really quick.

D. Mauro (50:58.946)
He did.

Kurt Long (51:00.398)
Football, we did pretty good. Basketball, they always, you know, they kind of outdid us, but I'll mention that to them. I really appreciate you guys. I appreciate the show. I appreciate, I really appreciate the support. This is the first time I've really gone that deep talking about these ideas publicly. I've been reticent to do that, but we all have to take on some amount of responsibility to bring back this beautiful world that.

D. Mauro (51:04.386)
He is.

Mark Mosher (51:08.606)

D. Mauro (51:08.994)
Ha ha ha ha ha!

D. Mauro (51:21.73)

Kurt Long (51:28.846)
we do have when there's law or freedom and for us to see our kids and our grandkids fulfill their human potential.

D. Mauro (51:37.666)
Absolutely. And it supports families. It's a good, safe way for families to share information, travel and share their information without it getting abused. And I really like the, I really appreciate the context in which the product, which is another layer of security with a low threshold, right? So, you know, we will have links to everything in the show notes.

Kurt Long (51:47.822)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mark Mosher (51:54.238)

to them.

D. Mauro (52:06.338)
And we invite you to reach out. You can reach out to Kurt as well directly. So thank you so much for your time, man. This is.

Kurt Long (52:12.686)
Yeah, B -U -N -K -R, Bunker .life is the website. And then I'm on LinkedIn if anybody wants to send a message about philanthropy or bunker, anything you want.

D. Mauro (52:21.666)
Absolutely, it's it's it's bunker bunkr .life So check it out everybody. Thank you so much Kurt. Appreciate meeting you

Kurt Long (52:25.742)
Correct. Yep.

Kurt Long (52:32.366)
Thanks, guys.