Cyber Crime Junkies

FBI Profiling & Negotiation.

November 12, 2023 Cyber Crime Junkies-David Mauro Season 3 Episode 17
Cyber Crime Junkies
FBI Profiling & Negotiation.
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Show Notes Transcript

We are joined today by special guest, former FBI special agent Nancy Aguilar, who had worked the Boston Marathon Bombing and other high-profile investigations.

She is also the host and creator of Baddass in heels:

We discuss: FBI Profiling and negotiation,  FBI Profiling and counter terrorism, and other key topics: how fbi negotiates, how fbi negotiations are used in cyber crime, how cyber crime negotiations work, fbi profiling in cyber crime, how fbi profiling helps fight cyber crime, understanding science in social engineering, science of social engineering explained, psychology of social engineering explained, how neuroscience hacks humans, the science behind hacking humans, hacking humans using science, Global Cyber Security Strategy,      

 Subscribe to our YouTube Channel for FREE: @Cybercrimejunkiespodcast

For more real cybercrime stories, visit our website at

Don't miss our extension of family at You will look and feel good and be treated like family and know that any purchase will help a great cause as portions of all proceeds go to support mental health awareness initiatives. Women's sweatshirts, tumblers, stickers, journals, bracelets and more. All in stock. All Handmade. Ready to ship straight to your door. 

Don't miss our extension of family at You will look and feel good and be treated like family and know that any purchase will help a great cause as portions of all proceeds go to support mental health awareness initiatives. Women's sweatshirts, tumblers, stickers, journals, bracelets and more. All in stock. All Handmade. Ready to ship straight to your door. 

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FBI Profiling and Counter Terrorism. 

 We are joined today by special guest, former FBI special agent Nancy Aguilar, who had worked the Boston Marathon Bombing and other high-profile investigations. 

 We discuss  FBI Profiling and counter terrorism, and other key topics: how fbi negotiates, how fbi negotiations are used in cyber crime, how cyber crime negotiations work, fbi profiling in cyber crime, how fbi profiling helps fight cyber crime, understanding science in social engineering, science of social engineering explained, psychology of social engineering explained, how neuroscience hacks humans, the science behind hacking humans, hacking humans using science, Global Cyber Security Strategy,      

Subscribe to our YouTube Channel for FREE: @Cybercrimejunkiespodcast

For more real cybercrime stories, visit our website at

[00:00:00] Come join us as we dive deeper behind the scenes of security and cybercrime today, interviewing top leaders from around the world and sharing true cybercrime stories to raise awareness. But first a huge thank you to all of our executive co producers who subscribed to our Prime membership and fueled our growth.

So please help us keep this going by subscribing for free to our YouTube channel and downloading our episodes. on Apple or Spotify podcasts so we can continue to bring you more of what matters. This is Cyber Crime Junkies and now the show.

Well welcome everybody to Cyber Crime Junkies. I am your host David Mauro. In the studio today [00:01:00] I have two fantastic people. The first is my illustrious always positive co host, Mark Mosher. Mark, how are you, man? Oh, I'm doing wonderful, David. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, I'm really excited about this episode.

Why don't you tell us who we've got in the studio with us today? Yeah, we have Nancy Aguilar, a former FBI agent on with us. She is also the host of Badass in Heels, podcast and website , she's got tons of experience and, Nancy, welcome to the studio. Welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. So, you know, , it's not every day that we get to speak with a former FBI agent.

We, we have had the fortunate opportunity to speak with several because we're part of InfoGuard, right? And we, we, we, we have that, that opportunity. First of all, thanks for the service that you did. And we mean that genuinely. we don't say that in any flip manner. Because, that is some pretty intense things that you guys go through and some pretty, very [00:02:00] significant training.

 Tell us a little bit about like what got you first and foremost, like tell ladies and gentlemen, kind of what, like, what got you to go into the... FBI. Like, did you play cops and robbers as a kid? Were you like, you know, like, did you, did you witness something as a kid? Like, what drove you? It's not, it's not a path that is very common among men or women, right?

It's a very select few that actually do it. So I'm always curious. Yeah, no, not at all. I mean, thinking back, my dad was an attorney, defense attorney. And, he wanted my sister and I to be either doctors or attorneys, but I do remember something that fascinated me as a 10 year old, I mean, it sounds creepy, but I would love, I, I, I really enjoyed reading the news.

And, you know, I grew up for the first 15 years of my life in Guatemala, so between 10 and 15, I would read the news and I always kind of [00:03:00] gravitated towards the crime section. I wanted to know what was happening and what was being done. And I never thought of it as, this is something I want to do. It's just something that I...

Like I said, it's creepy, but it fascinated me to learn about things like that. And then, of course, life takes you in different directions. I ended up moving to Montreal, Canada, end up becoming a teacher. Ah, a school teacher. What, what, what grade did you teach? Oh my gosh, high school and then business English.

And I also taught adults who wanted to learn English as a second language, Spanish, and French. Wow. So immersion levels for judges. Yeah, that's interesting. We have, we have another, FBI agent that we've had on our show that we're also friends with, , Darren Mott, who has a podcast, The Cyber Guy Podcast.

Yeah, I know him. Darren, shout out. He was a school teacher. Yeah, he was a school teacher and then he was like, yeah, I'm going to go be an FBI agent and he's like applied and he's like, there's no way they're going to let me in and he's like, they let him in and he's like, now [00:04:00] what do I do? He's like, now I have to like this childhood fantasy that I had.

Like I have to go do it. So that moment when you find out you got accepted to be in the FBI, like what is it? Well, first, even before that, what made you apply in the first place? Like, you're a school teacher, banging these kids heads up against the wall because they're teenagers, right? Like, what, what made you go, that's it, I'm going to the FBI?

Like, you know? Yeah, so, well, 9 11 happens, and I was teaching in Chicago, and as you can imagine, that was my last year, not just because it was Chicago students. But 9 11 happens and I get a phone call from a friend and she's like, Hey, why don't you join back then it was DHS to be a linguist and I did that for

about six years, of course, transition to the Drug Enforcement Administration. They were on a hiring freeze, so I decided to do my master's in forensic science while I'm [00:05:00] still working as a contract linguist for DEA. And two FBI agents approached me while they were working in the bullpen and they're like, Hey, have you ever thought of applying to the FBI?

You're studying forensics. You could work in the lab. And I was a, CSI junkie back then. So I'm like, yeah, that's, that's interesting. Of course it was a big lie. But I believe it, because I've been in the lab twice. Once, you know, when you're at the academy and you do the tour. And then, maybe in 2016 when I had a proof of life to bring to the laboratory for For forensics, but I loved it once I, you know, I applied, I didn't know what to expect, but once I got to the FBI Academy and saw the building, I was like, wow, I had seen, of course, Silence of the Lambs, Jodie Foster.

Oh, sure. I couldn't believe, this Guatemalan Montreal [00:06:00] woman was. Actually there, like I had made it and the rest was just, I was doing my thesis still for my master's the first three months at the Academy. So that was a little bit challenging. I would think balancing both of those. Sure. Yeah. And back then there was no Wi Fi or anything.

So I had to leave campus at night or on the weekends just to work on my thesis and still balance, you know, making it through the Academy. Wow. So what year did you ultimately join? 2009. Wait a minute, there's something interesting that you had mentioned that I want to maybe ask about. So you said that the two agents from the FBI approached you and they knew that you were doing what you were doing in school and your contract.

So they did a little background check and said, Hey, you know what? She would be really good. So they came to recruit you. That's really cool. Yes. Yes. And I, by the time I, I joined, one of them had retired. But the other [00:07:00] one, Steve DeHardy, I believe he's still in the bureau and I ran into him several times even last, last year when I was at Quantico.

So it was really great to thank them because I had a fabulous career. That's really cool. That's amazing. Yeah. So when you were in the FBI, you were, did you start off in like the counterterrorism area or what, what division did you initially start off in? Yes, it was counterterrorism and honestly, I didn't know anything about it.

Having worked as a linguist, all I knew was narcotics, the big cartels in Mexico, overseas drug related operations, and I get placed in San Juan, Puerto Rico to work international terrorism. When Al Qaeda and Anwar al Awlaki were, you know, the most popular, the flavor of the year. And I was like, Anwar who?

And what is counter terrorism? Like, my class was the, the guinea pig for national security [00:08:00] classes in the FBI. So we were one of the first ones to have actual CT training. And I have to say, it's gotten better. It's, you know, I taught it last year at the academy, my last year, and I revamped the entire CT curriculum.

But back then in 09, it was just something that they were kind of testing. So getting to San Juan to work IT was just brand new. But being that I love to study, I am a nerd. I read and read every single, from books to, you know, agency, paperwork, everything that I had. I could get my hands on to actually learn the threat and be able to prevent it, mitigate it, and fight it.

That's, that's phenomenal. So, for those of us that, that don't know anything about this stuff, like, what, what is, like, what is counter terrorism? Like, I, I think I, I think I know, but can you explain FBI's approach to it, is it like, Threat hunting, where they're looking at different risks, [00:09:00] different pockets.

Do you, do you do the profiling? What, what, what all is kind of involved? Without disclosing anything, like, proprietary. Yeah. So, the FBI, historically, we responded, right? We responded to attacks. It was after the fact. And then we just have to find out who, what, when, where, why. Associates, financiers, etc.

And as we... As it evolved, the squads evolved, and the training evolved, it was all about intelligence and trying to prevent and mitigate. So, my work per se, in San Juan was, I received leads or tips, legitimate tips, with information of suspects. This individual is suspected of, let's say, wanting to blow themselves up in the United States.

And that, of course, is something that is imminent, and you have to... You can't neglect, you have to follow up on. Yeah, it's almost like those inspired lone wolves, right? And isn't that part of the reason why it's so hard to police [00:10:00] that type of threat, right? Because it's, they're all over the place. You know, there's no monitoring that can be in place when somebody gets inspired until they start talking, right?

Or they start posting things online or talking to people or buying certain things. It's that type of stuff, right? Precisely and that was actually my first case which became the biggest case in San Juan. Of course, San Juan is a small Office considered, you know, comparing to New York City or L. A. or here in Washington, D.

C. But I was able to brief Director Mueller in 2011, I graduated. I'm talking to him about this individual who, you just said it, she was a lone wolf who had self radicalized based on the teachings Awlaki, but she was willing to kill herself. Oh, yeah. So it wasn't just someone that's like I want to join.

She was like, how do I do this? So much more than like a fan, right? They, she [00:11:00] actually wants to get on stage herself, right? She was getting on stage and I mean, it was a massive case. I ended up building my own task force. I was already part of the Joint Terrorism Task Force, but because the case grew so much that I needed resources.

So my supervisor assigned me, I had five task force officers, one translator, because it was all in Arabic. And that is when I decided to learn Arabic because being a linguist a Spanish linguist, I couldn't wait for translations. I needed to know now, is she going to do something? So I self started then to learn Arabic.

And my supervisor approaches me, he's like, do you know the bureau is going to pay you to go learn Arabic? And I was like, hell yeah. bUt that was my first case and I loved it. I worked CT as we know for. Well, for the rest of my career for 13 years. Let me ask you, how many languages do you speak? Well, [00:12:00] English, a little bit of English, Spanish, French, and I can get by in Arabic.

Wow. So, Mark, you can clearly apply to the FBI, because he speaks English, and... In Kentucky, in GI . Right. There you go. You speak Kentuckian. So you've got that right, right, right. There's that, right? Yeah. But after San Juan, I applied to join the extraterritorial squad here in the Washington Field office.

Back in the day in 2013, you had to survey, resume, and prove that you were basically a self-sufficient agent who had done good work and could lead cases of such magnitude. You know, ex extraterritorial means. Working cases overseas, so from individuals who pose a threat to Americans, U. S. installations, or U.

S. interests, or over, or the opposite, right? Overseas based individuals posing threats here domestically, so that was really great [00:13:00] work. I worked that for seven years and some of my work included the Boston Marathon, of course all the extra territorial aspect of it, right? When you say extra territorial, what do you mean?

Like the connections to this outside the United States? Yes, so for the Boston Marathon, the Tsarnaev brothers per se, I was investigating if they had any associates overseas that were part of their network, or if somebody overseas was directing another sleeping cell tied to the Tsarnaevs, things like that.

Right. If they had financiers or if somebody had guided them or directed them, right? Right. Of course it turned out to be another case of lone wolves. They have self radicalized. I mean, it's still a debate, right? Whether he did get guidance when he went to To Chechnya for all those months, just preceding the attacks, but that's stuff I can't talk about.

Yeah, and I, yeah. Things like that, right? [00:14:00] Well, yeah, we, we know people that were involved. We were in, we were all watching throughout that, and that trip right before, everybody was like, what was going on there, right? Yes. So, yes. Holy cow. Well, you know, Cyber security is really just about fighting crime. It's just crime online, right?

It's not more complicated than that. And when you think about the, the negotiation tactics that you learned and some of the approach to investigation, it's very, very similar. Right? You know, 20, 30 years ago, we had like two versions of our lives. Like we had. Our regular life, and then we had like this other copy that was kind of online, but a little whatever, but it didn't have everything.

Now, like, almost everything everybody does is online to some degree, right? Like, you express what you like. If you like to craft by [00:15:00] yourself in your bedroom, like, you've got a Pinterest. People can tell what you like, right? Like, there's all of these different things, and so I'm glad we weren't part of this.

Like, all my things and college. When I grew up, I'm so glad like Facebook and Instagram and stuff were not around. So let's, let me ask you a little bit about you know, negotiations, like some of the training that they gave you in in the FBI and stuff, what type of stuff did they talk to you about when you're ever negotiating or speaking with?

Is there like a behavioral model or is there a way of asking questions that works? Like what, what, what, what type of insight can you provide? So I didn't personally get negotiation training because I was not a negotiator, but I did work hostages for several years. And of it all is.

Communication, [00:16:00] right? I conducted thousands of interviews. I recruited and flipped several assets. Very some of them very high profile. One of them, as you know, being the witness for this one of the main witness for this case of Alison Fluke Ekron. And it's all about communication, learning to listen, learning when to To talk um, looking at their behavior, trying to establish a baseline, you know, you, you see it on the movies.

Oh, if they touch their hair, they're lying. If they look up or right. That's not true. Yeah, none of that's it could be. It could be, but it could just be. Yeah, don't you have to know what their baseline is? Exactly. So, once you know what their if you don't establish that, you don't know if I'm just like really itchy.

Right? But if I've been sitting here all this time, I'm very animated, but if all of a sudden I stop moving, it's like, what's going on with Nancy, right? So that's the [00:17:00] kind of things that you got to look at. And people will also, when they speak, omit things the type of words that they use, why are they using it?

Do you realize or do you notice a change in perhaps emotions? Do they? Start to shiver, quiver, cry, there's their voice crack. Is there any little changes? But you have to be really tuned in to a person. To know this, right? You can't be sitting, and this is when I was instructing at the FBI Academy, I taught interviews and interrogations and human human, human recruitment.

You have to really look at the person and don't be thinking, what's my next question? Because you're going to miss something really important. You're going to miss a gate. You're going to miss that opening. that allows you to really find out what is their motivation, what do they really want, how do I make them talk, how do I get that confession, how do I make them flip, etc.

So that's really interesting because when you think of a cyber crime incident you think [00:18:00] of like a ransomware attack and business owners and people like they have to hire people and they have to negotiate. With like a cybercrime gang member, and it's on like some encrypted channel platform that these business owners or leaders in an organization or government agency, they've never used, right?

Nobody has a talks channel, like nobody's, very few people are using Signal or, or a lot of these things, and yet they have to go into their world, and they have to do that, and they don't get to see them in person, and they don't get a lot of, opportunity to kind of find that baseline, but knowing that you kind of need that baseline.

Like, what, what is an example of that? Is it just maybe just asking them things that you know would be the truth? Sure. Or false. But you know that. Oh, okay. And then you kind of know when they say something that's false, this is the words that they're using. These are the communication. This is how long [00:19:00] the text is.

All of those little things, you can look at that. Yeah. Then evaluate that and then and then compare that when you really want to ask them something, whether you think it's the truth or not. And you have to be really perceptive to inconsistencies, right? So you have to keep track of the story they're telling you.

Or even like, in this case, demands. Are they changing their demands? Can you really negotiate? Because they're really not that hungry for money. What's their background? Can you utilize your own vulnerable? This is a word that I have a hard time saying. Vulnerability abilities. , to kind of play dumb, you know, which is another thing that always worked for me, when I was recruiting people.

It works for more too. I don't really know about this. Oh yeah. All the time. It works all the time. . Hey, I wanted to ask you, when you, when you flip the witnesses or you flip an asset. Is it like we see in the movies? It's just like that power threat. If you don't do this, you're gonna go to prison. And [00:20:00] what is that like?

Because it seems like you're taking somebody that obviously has a passionate or personal feeling about a particular cause. How do you do that? I mean, as much as you can tell us. Yeah, I would think the threatening part might work for the gangs, you know, narcotics. Hey, you cooperate with us, you might go to jail a year instead of ten.

But for my type of work, that wasn't going to fly. It was more, some of them were monetary incentivized. So if you give us the intelligence we need, you know, you're, we were able to help you get out of, you know, bankruptcy, mortgage, et cetera. A lot of them had to do with ideology. If you believe in an ideology, but your actions are contradictory, let me help you get to work.

You're gonna be happy and at peace with yourself, and that's gonna be by helping me, kind of thing, and it helps you, but it helps me, so it's like a, you know, you give and you take, you can't just take and you can't just give, that's interesting. That's, that's, that's [00:21:00] so Applicable to cybercrime and, and some of the, you know, very difficult scenarios that people get kind of thrown into.

Yeah, and... No, go ahead. I was gonna say, so at the end you also have to remember, they're all criminals, right? Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, that aspect of it, right? So, you... When you're negotiating, you have to keep that in mind. Are they really going to produce? In our case, it's a little different because you have that human interaction.

You're able to break and get closer. As a woman, I was able to. Get closer to other females as well because you can have things to relate use that emotion part, right? The mother, the son, the daughter, your family. When you're dealing with people on the internet and I, you know, I worked the case of Robert Levinson.

So we have thousands of tips that came daily and they were all electronic tips. And we did have a lot of people using the dark web to reach out to us. And that was a lot of work and I would have to go work with my cyber folks, my cyber [00:22:00] friends. And it was harder because it's all a written statement.

You can't really deduce if it's genuine, if it's true, nothing. You you can't see fidgeting, all of that. So you have to find a way to get them off that platform, first of all. Yep. Let's not just chat on this. I want to talk to you. Because people start connecting as humans, I feel. It's a little different.

But in the end, at the end, like I was saying, they're all criminals, so. You gotta think, do I really pay out and not get my, my data unencrypted, or does it still get sold on the dark web? So these are a lot of things that you have to consider, and I always gotta say, the best, the best method is prevention.

You know, be aware, train your people, big companies, you invest in human capital, invest in teaching them cyber awareness, every quarter, do phishing experiments, you know, testing, things like that. That's phenomenal, we didn't even pay you to say that, that's great, that's exactly right, like that's exactly what we preach, yeah, that's so true.[00:23:00] 

So so Robert Levinson, real quick, what was that case about, could you share that with the listeners? Yes, so he has been missing, oh, he went missing in March of 2002 during a trip to Kish Island, Iran. And he's considered the longest held hostage, American hostage. Of course, I think it was in 2021.

Yes, where the Department of State, OFAC. The Office of Foreign Asset Control was able to designate two Iranian officials and held responsible for his abduction and disappearance, and that is a case that has been high profile. Since the beginning as you, well, as you may have read or listened on the news, he was working, he had retired as an FBI agent, he had previously worked for DEA, so several years about 30 to 33 years in the federal government of service, and [00:24:00] then he started his own consulting work, like Most retired government people do, right?

Yep. And unfortunately, he teamed up with Agency, and he was basically on a rogue mission. And that's controversy still remains till now because, of course, nobody is going to come out with a truth on that. Right, right. But he went on Kish Island trying to get information, and he just never came back.

Yeah. Ah, so tragic. So that was a really tough case. And like I said, a lot of negotiations, a lot of fake proof of lives, but it was such a dynamic case. I worked at for three and a half years. It was very intensive. Yes. And I, I had opportunity to promote to supervisor earlier, but every time somebody reached out to me, Nancy, come apply for this position at headquarters.

I'm like, no, no, I'm getting this close. Cause you, you would take a lead in. You know, you're working, we would think I might be able to bring them home if I can track this down, right? Yeah, and we're working, it was an [00:25:00] interagency effort, right? So we have all the backup from other Intel, the Intel community saying, this could be a legit lead, right?

I mean, it was the case where I utilized the most sophisticated techniques that people don't even know exist. I mean, it was amazing work, but very sad and challenging because we would have to go meet with the family and every time they thought... People, that he was going to come home, he didn't, so it was very sad.

So what type of sophistication, sophisticated techniques are there that we don't know about? Like, I want to know. We do want to know about it. On Cyber Crime Junkies, we, we have the, the chip that they insert in your head. I just want to know, like, what is it? Like, is it negotiation tactics? Is it things like that?

Or investigative? Things. No, so we're talking truly cyber type of techniques. I work with BAU Cyber, BAU The Behavioral [00:26:00] Analytics Unit. Behavior Analysis Unit SIRG. That is the gee, what's SIRG? Mark, Google it. Is it? Hold on, let I didn't know. Oh, the critical, yeah, the FBI's Critical Incident Response Group, and we had assigned hostage negotiators.

I worked with Steer. They are the from the military, the ones that recover, so you can't Wow. Levenson was recovered. They go through all his I guess, psychological um, what are you? Not profiling, but has assessment, a psychological assessment in helping him, you know, after captivity for so many years.

So it's a combination of like advances in technology and cyber, you know, tactics, right? And processes along with like old school. Like crime fighting, right? Yes, exactly, yep. And some of the other human sources is like you're saying, old school. And [00:27:00] it's human to human. Well, and when you mentioned about like proofs of life and things, that happens in a cyber security negotiation, because one of the first things that like the company always wants to know or an organization wants to know is how do we know that you actually have our data?

And so the cybercrime gangs or the hackers or whatever, the threat actors, they're not hackers. Hackers aren't necessarily bad. It's, it's the threat actors will actually post. Some things that come right from the middle of the actual documents on their sites on the dark web. So that way people can see, okay, they actually do have our data because otherwise there's no way they would have that.

Yeah. Yeah, so it's very similar, very similar kind of processes that are, that are followed. That's so interesting. So you retired from the FBI. And that was in what? 2022? 2022, yes. But I still miss it. Yeah, well that's good though. [00:28:00] That's good. What are you what have you been doing since? Like, share with us, like you're all over the place.

We, you know, we know that you were on the news during the... During the Boston bombing investigation. What, what are, you've, you've created Badass in Heels. Kind of, what is the mission of that? Share with the listeners. Yeah, so Ann Began reached out to me, you know I think it was last September, and asked if I wanted to be on FBI True.

Talk about the extraterritorial piece of the Boston Marathon because that is something that people didn't know about, you know, everybody knew about the domestic investigation, right? Right. We all saw it. Right. We all saw them. Exactly. Everybody followed it. He was shot hiding in the boat, all that stuff, right?

Yeah, it was intense. And I literally had just arrived here in Washington field office when they're like, Nancy. You're it for working. I was working on the caucuses. So they said, Nancy, this is your region. You're going to work the extraterritorial aspect of the Boston [00:29:00] Marathon. And I, what, four years? Yeah, I had four years in the Bureau.

And it was just amazing work. Something new to me as well. You know, I had to learn. That's the one thing I didn't change. I didn't learn Russian, just Brat. That's it. Brat. Two words. It was too difficult. I was like, no, no, my brain can't handle fifth language. But, it was amazing work and When she called me to do that, I said, of course, you know, I'll talk about it as much as I can because of course it's top secret.

And after I was on that episode, a lot of my friends reached out and they said, man, you were a badass. I didn't know you were counter terrorism. I didn't know you did all this stuff. And that got me thinking, you know what? I was a badass, I guess. And there are plenty of badass women out there. And how can I share that story?

Because having retired, I finally jumped on LinkedIn. Which is hilarious because when you're in the FBI, they tell you no social media, nothing associated with the Bureau. Right. And then I go on [00:30:00] LinkedIn after I retired and I'm like, dang, half of the FBI is here. Yeah, they're all there. There's a lot of agents.

Yeah, I think we've connected almost But I quickly realized there's really not much on FBI women. Our achievements, our roles, like firearms, weapons of mass destruction high high value interrogators, all of, all of those roles that we play, nobody really knows about. And that's where Badass in Heels, the idea for Badass in Heels was born.

So I've been doing that since July. And I host amazing, extraordinary, retired and current. FBI women, and they share their stories from what does it mean, what is it like to be a woman in the FBI, and they highlight their career, and we conclude by giving advice to aspiring young women. Well that's great, and especially the arc from like being a school teacher.

to joining the FBI. I mean, there's so many people that think about, you know, everybody almost [00:31:00] has that in their mind, like, what if I go do this, right? What if I do this, right? Or they have some career, kind of, they plateau where there are, and they, and they want to do something, but they don't think, oh, they won't take me, or there's probably no chance.

Exactly. But you know, you were able to apply, you got in, and look at the exciting things you got to do right away. So when you say you were a linguist, like what does that mean? Like, I know what it means, but like a listener might not know what that means. Yeah, so that I was supporting title threes, in essence, wiretaps for the DEA and DHS.

And as everybody knows, you just listen in to the bad guys. Yeah. In my case, it was cartels, but I would also get at home. So if somebody wants to work from home, you would get the tape. I guess now CDs. I don't know what they use now. Maybe flash drives. I'm, I'm dating myself here with like what is it?

8 tracks? Yeah, exactly. You roll up the, you roll up the 8 [00:32:00] track player and you listen in. I did grow up to that, but not when I was a linguist. And you translate court documents from home. And that's another thing, you know, for the FBI, there's so many, roles. You don't have to just apply to be a special agent.

There's linguists. There's accountants. There's intelligence analysts. There's a myriad of roles that you can support in any other agencies like that. Yeah Excellent. That is so interesting. Well, we will have links to your podcast into your website in our show notes What is what is coming up? aCtually before we, right, before, before you answer that, I'm just curious.

I just want to ask some of the women that you've had on, we'll have links so that people can see that, but do they have somewhat similar stories? Like, did they come from non law enforcement backgrounds and then migrate over to the FBI as well? See, not just a hat rack, man, I've got some good questions in here.

That's the fascinating that's the fascinating thing about [00:33:00] the podcast. Women come from all different ages. Different colors in different eras, right? I have women who started appearing in the 70s and one that just started four years ago from different Offices in different backgrounds. So some of them grew up aspiring to be in law enforcement, you know, because because they grew up with households with parents in the military or law enforcement and others were just like me where it was just Somebody approached them and recruited them.

That's phenomenal. That's why the listeners need to tune in to Nancy's podcast. Thank you for the shout out. That's so cool. So what's coming up next? Are you speaking anywhere? Do you have any events that are coming up? I haven't thought that far ahead. I am going to have a special guest in probably by December.

She's going to be, she's in law enforcement. Very [00:34:00] high profile, but not. So I'm having other trying to highlight other amazing law enforcement women through the podcast. Oh, that's fantastic. So now the listeners need to go follow you on LinkedIn so they can see this special episode and be aware of it come December.

Absolutely. Yeah. No, I love stories like that. I think we had spoke when we first met My cousin that I grew up with she actually became a Chicago police officer and was like in the hood, like getting shot at, right? Yeah, she like her territory was Cabrini Green and I remember this was, this was, you know, 20 years ago.

She's since retired on a medical Retirement, but there, you know, like I remember hearing the stories. I'm like thinking she was nuts. Like what did like, Oh my gosh, you go to work and you go like go into like a war zone. It was just so brave. It was so good. It's just so honorable. I love it. Your cousin on the sideline, your cousin might[00:35:00]  know this special guest.

I have a sense of who the person might be. That's good. Yeah, that's exciting. Wouldn't it be funny if like the person she has on is like my cousin? You should send her over to me. I've got to ask her like, are you on a podcast coming up? That's so cool. Very cool. Well, thank you so much. We'll have links to everything in the, in, in the show notes.

And again, thank you for your service. Absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much. It was an honor.

Well that wraps this up. Thanks for joining everybody. Hope you got value out of digging deeper behind the scenes of security and cybercrime today. Please don't forget to help keep this going by subscribing free to our YouTube channel at Cyber Crime Junkies Podcast and download and enjoy all of our past episodes on Apple and Spotify Podcasts so we can continue [00:36:00] to bring you more of what matters.

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